Join a live recording of Madlik disruptive Torah on Clubhouse with Geoffrey Stern, Rabbi Adam Mintz and Rabbi Avraham Bronstein  as we use the book of Kohelet to explore the fundamental difference between the Torah given at Sinai and the Wisdom literature we share with our ancient Near Eastern neighbors. We explore the difference between linear and cyclical time and we wonder why we need a healthy dose of common sense, living in the moment and even cynicism after the Jewish New Year.

Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/348859 

Transcript:

Geoffrey Stern  00:00

So welcome to Madlik disruptive Torah every week at four o'clock on clubhouse eastern time, we have a half an hour discussion of the Parsha. And by disruptive we mean we look at things maybe from a slightly different angle and hopefully help our participants look at it slightly differently as well. And this week is no exception. So Rabbi Adam challenged me last week to talk about Kohelet Ecclesiastes and that is what we're going to do. And we're going to start with the first verse because in that first verse is so much of what is to follow, and it raises so many questions about authorship and about the  sense of the message. So this is how it begins The words of Kohelet, Son of David king in Jerusalem. utter futility, said Kohelet, utter futility, all is futile." And of course, the Hebrew is "haval havalim" And that translation of utter futility, or "vanity all is vanity" is from the King James Bible, and probably we've all absorbed it. So the question that really comes up is Who was this guy? Kohelet? Was it a real person? Or is it a nom de plume for the writer? And then of course, the other question is, what does it mean that all of life is vanity? So why don't I start right there and open up to the discussion of what are you guys thoughts on who is Kohelet what is Kohelet? Avraham? Why don't you store

Avraham Bronstein  01:45

The words after Kohelt are "Ben David Melech Yerushalyim". So whoever Kohelet is, he's the son of David king in Jerusalem. That kind of narrows it down. That's why the tradition is that the author King Solomon.

Geoffrey Stern  02:00

So I think you're absolutely right. Of course, we're all called B'nai Yisrael And Yisrael is not my actual father. So that's not totally true, in terms of necessarily making it Shlomo. And then I mentioned a second ago that we all read "Vanity of Vanities", and that comes from the King James Bible. And I hardly doubt that King James translated the Bible. But what he did was he financed a group of people to translate the Bible. So all of a sudden, we have a lot of complication, when it says, somebody wrote a book, did he actually write it? Or did he support it? And when it says, We are a child, does it mean a follower? Does it mean an actual child? Rabbi, Adam, where do you come in on this?

Adam Mintz  02:50

So there are a couple things. First of all, I want to bring everyone's attention, there's an amazing English translation of the Bible, written by a professor from Berkeley by the name of Robert Alter, and generally he's good, and his introductions to Kohelet is especially good. The first thing he says is what Geoffrey says. And that is Kohelet Ben David doesn't mean that he's the son of David doesn't have to be Solomon. And it means that he came from the Davidic family. Now, that's one thing. So we could be many generations later. And the scholars all think it was later. The other thing is, and I think this is interesting to consider when you write a book, and there's some kind of competition, whether or not your book is going to be included in the Bible. You very often want to give yourself some credibility. It might be to give yourself some credibility. You say, I'm William Shakespeare, I wrote this play. Like it was 500 years ago. I don't know if William Shakespeare wrote it, or William Shakespeare didn't write. But if I say that I'm William Shakespeare, then I give myself credibility. So it is possible that the author of go hell it is not indeed the son of David or a descendant of David. But he knew that if he wanted to get his book into the Bible, he needed to call himself a son of David. That's a little cynical, but I think it's something to consider.

Geoffrey Stern  04:31

Well, it gets but it does get even better because it's not as though he said my name is Shlomo. Like he did for the Song of Songs that he said Shir HaShirim asher l'Shlomo" he took on a Nom de plume, and he engendered this whole conversation that we're talking about him so it is kind of fun that way.

Adam Mintz  04:55

Not only a name that we've never heard before, but the structure Kohelet is a very funny structure. That's not the way you say it. If the word Kohelet means the one who gathers people, there's a way to say that in Hebrew "make'el" "he gathers people"  Kohelet is a very strange form of the term to gather people. So Geoffrey, it's almost as if he chose a name for himself, a Nom de plume and it's not even real, meaning that he just chose a name for himself. So I think that's interesting. "vanities of vanities" of course, the King James made that famous. Alter points out and this has been pointed out by many, many people, the word has really means breath. And "hevel havalim hakol hevel" really means that everything is no more than breath. The same way when you breathe in the cold, and you can see your breath, but it's really nothing. That's what life is have, "hevel havalim amar Kohelet" All life is like that. It's like the breath that looks like it's something but it's really nothing.

Geoffrey Stern  06:19

So we don't have a dearth of material today, that's for sure. So the word that he took forgetting about who he was, as you point out, Kohelet means to gather. It's one who assembles and even in the translation into Latin Ecclesiastes, which literally means someone who gathers an ecclesiastical court is a gathering. It's an assembling an audience. It can also mean gathering ideas, gathering truth, and different opinions. If you look at Kings 1, here it says, "Oz yikahal Shlomo", that Solomon convoked, the elders of Israel, and this is when he read, dedicated or he dedicated the temple on Sukkot time, those of us and I said this in the pre party, who remember the episode two times ago about the revolution of the Aleph Beit, we know that in the time of Sukkot, was this "VaYakel" this commandment to publicly read the book of the Torah. So I will almost venture to say my pet name for Kohelet is Mr. Sukkot, in a sense, because what he's doing is he's bringing the themes together, that we've kind of been discussing for a while, and we're going to get into how deep that is this idea of this short breath, I absolutely love Alter says it. Also, Rabbi Sacks, talks about it. And he says, everything to do with life in Judaism refers to a breath. So there's a "Neshama", which comes from the word "Linshom" to breathe. There's Nefesh. there's Ruach, which is wind. And what he says "hevel" is, is a very short breath. It's a very superficial breath. It's that breath of the fleeting breath. And what he is saying is that the sense that we're going to get from the book that follows is the fleetingness of life. But it comes at a moment where maybe that's it's all we have. And so I think all of these kind of themes come together. And if we think about Sukkot, there are so many words that have to do with in gathering. It just occurred to me You know, they always say the Eskimos have so many words for snow. Here we have Ketzir, the "hag Hakazir or the Hag Ha'assaf" these are the gathering of the crops. We have the lulav in the Etrog and the Arba minim (four species) that have to be bound together. We have the very word for moed, which is a holiday, but as "Ohel Moed" It's a tent of meeting. It's a time to come all together. So all of these concepts of binding of coming together of gathering of welcoming other thoughts all come to the fore at this moment, and that's why I say that maybe Kohelet is Mr. Sukkak.

Adam Mintz  09:41

Great. I love it. Now the question is, why is that so? Why is Sukkot the holiday of gathering?

Geoffrey Stern  09:51

so I'm going to call on Avraham before he leaves because he started talking about something that I really want to get into. He talked about the difference between cyclical time and linear time. And that short little breath. That was momentary time, where does that fit in Avraham?

Avraham Bronstein  10:12

So before I say anything I want to riff on what you were saying a second ago, that connection between Hakel and Kohelet that was great. Because if you continue in Devarim, right, what we read a few weeks ago where the mitzvah of Hakel is first kind of spoken about. The whole point is, everyone has to be there to hear the Torah being read. . "Lman yishmau ve lilmadu l'yira et hashem Elokehchem" the point ultimately, to arrive at "yira" reverence of God, which is actually the point of the entire book of Kohelet when it comes down to the very end after everything is said and done. "sof Davar HaKol Nishma" The point of Hakel is to arrive at Yira, the point of Kohelt is to arrive at the same place... a connection I never ever saw before or thought about before, but I think now is actually very compelling. So first, thank you.

Geoffrey Stern  11:09

You're welcome.

Avraham Bronstein  11:11

That's great. The second thing is to address what you just asked, maybe we can unpack this a little bit more based on what you said. But the overall sense of what Kohelet is trying to say in the first several verses, and then you get back to it again, is that everything always stays the same that people try to do things that people build things and they accumulate things that they expend effort, and they do all these different things. But ultimately, everything kind of repeats itself everything, the same generation comes generation goes nothing really changes it and to a degree. You know, you're reading this at the end of the year, when one agricultural season is ending and the next one is starting at the same time, the ingathering festival. So last year's harvest is coming in. But the farmers are all getting ready to plant next year's crop. They're already praying for rain for next year's crop. So again, your sense of time moving in a circle where you've arrived at the end but even while you're ending you're beginning again and your in the same place you were a year ago.

Geoffrey Stern  12:22

There is this sense of do Rosh Hashannah and do Yom Kippur and then "repeat". And the thing that really struck me in reading some of the thoughts of Rabbi Sacks is he also discusses the difference between happiness and joy between Osher and Simcha and he makes the difference, that Simcha like that short breath is absolutely momentary, and Osher we talk about Ashray Yoshvey vetecha... all throughout Psalms and other writings we're trying to look for a life well lived. And what he points out and again it kind of touches upon their sense of cyclical or lineal is that we land at this moment between the end of the last year and the beginning of the new and of course, for a farmer that comes where you're pulling the crops and I'm not a farmer, but I know the second you pull in the crops The next thing you do is start preparing the land for the next crop. And it's this sense of simcha is what we call it zeman simchataynu. He says that the simcha that we feel, the absolute joy, unadulterated joy that we feel is of the moment...  is that short breath, if we read the rest of Kohelet we're gonna see a sense of eat, drink and be merry type type of Simcha. It's something that's very special and distinct from that kind of linear progression of slow growth over time over maybe a lifetime that we are so accustomed to. We've binged on Judaism for the last two, three weeks, maybe even a month and a half. And this is a very special time that I think Jewish tradition kind of understood that somehow Kohelet, which is from the Wisdom literature, and we're going to get into that in a second, was able to grasp and able to convey more than traditional types of linear Torah texts that have a beginning in Eden and an end in Redemption might have is that the kind of area that you're going to be talking about a little bit. Rabbi Avraham?

14:59

A little bit. Yeah, kind of you're doing the same thing over and over again. But what are you doing a little bit differently this year as opposed to last year?

Geoffrey Stern  15:08

Interesting, I would, I would say that the argument of Kohelet is "not so different". His argument is very humbling from the perspective of someone who believes that the life of us as an individual, and life of us as a people, is a long project is a struggle has a beginning, a middle and an end, and a slow evolution, and investment. I think much of what Kohelet is about and we're not going to be able to read the book today. But stay tuned, go to synagogue and listen to it. It's literally almost a rebellion against that, or at least an alternative side of the coin, in terms of "you know what, it's just a moment and when things are good, take the good and when things are bad look forward to when the sun will shine again." What do you think, Adam?

Adam Mintz  16:06

So I wonder about a slightly different point. And that is what do you make about Kohelet come coming a week after Yom Kippur. When we take life so seriously, "mi Yichiye, Mi Yamut" who will live and who will die, who by fire, who by water, everything is very serious. And all of a sudden comes King Solomon or whoever it is; Kohelet and says haveil havalim hakol hevel. That everything is Vanity of vanities or breath or whatever the word may be. What do you make of that reading kohelet right after Yom Kippur?

Geoffrey Stern  16:51

I think that no one can say it's unintentional. That's the one thing I think I can safely say. But I do believe the intention is rather strong. And I do believe that your question is a wonderful segue into what I'd like to spend the rest or at least a large portion of the discussion discussing, which is that co Kohelet comes from Wisdom Literature. We all know that King Solomon was not referred to as a Torah scholar. He was referred to as a wise man. And that is not simply an adjective or a description. It is a trigger. In the Ancient Near East, there is much literature that is called Wisdom Literature. And those of you who know Shai Held he's a Rosh Hayeshiva at Hadar. Well, I took a course from his father at Columbia, and his name was Moshe Held, and he was an expert in Ugaritic and Akkadian and he explained what the difference is between wisdom literature and Torah, and you will listen to these three rules, and it will make you listen and read differently. When you study Kohelet, when you study Ecclesiastes, or Proverbs, or even the Song of Songs or Job. Number one, it's only about the individual, nothing to do with a nation, it's about a single person. Number two, it's unhistorical. There's no nationalism, the name of Israel is never mentioned, the only difference and I underline only, between the wisdom literature of our neighbors, the Sumerians, the Mesopotamians, and the Egyptians and us is that when they cry out to god, they might cry out to three gods, we cry out to one ... it's monotheism. But otherwise, you couldn't find something more stark, then wisdom literature as something that was shared by every nation and society in our neighborhood. It's practical, and Professor Held ends by saying that anybody, anybody who studies a book like Kohelet or Ecclesiastes and doesn't understand this difference is operating with a false eyeglass. And, unfortunately, we tend to break down that barrier and homogenize Wisdom Literature with Torah. But as you all know Torah talks about the people of Israel Torah talks about history in terms of Egypt in terms of Sinai, none of those terms would ever find themselves in wisdom literature and the real key is when we say Eitz Hayim hi L'machazikim ba"; "that it is a tree of life to those hold on to it" that comes from Proverbs. And we have homogenized that I would say kidnapped it. And we talking about Torah. But it's not about Torah. It's about Wisdom. When we read Proverbs, and we say "listen to the "Torat Imecha" listen to the Torah of your mother. It doesn't mean Torah, it means the wisdom of your mother. So Held and other scholars need us to understand. And this really relates to the question that you asked Rabbi Adam, about why are we reading this book, it's not only reading this book, it's reading a book from a totally different tradition than the Torah tradition. And it is included in our, in our canon, we call it TaNaKh, Torah, Nevi'im veKetuvim. Ketuvim is the written books of Wisdom Literature. So they're probably accepted as different as they are because they were written in Hebrew, and they were part of our culture. But it's a stark difference. And I think I'd love to hear your comments on this. But I think what it does is it raises the stakes in your question. It's not simply Why did we pick one of the 24 books to read on Sukkot when we had other choices? It's why did we pick one of the most representative books of the common wisdom, the common practical guidelines? And yes, the cynical and I would say fatalistic viewpoint that was shared by all humanity to read after such a Jewish month?

Adam Mintz  21:52

So I just want to I want to strengthen your question. There's a rabbinic teaching in something called Masechet Sofrim that was written around the year 800. And it says that on Shabbat Hol HaMoed Pesach we read Shir HaShirim (the Song of Songs) because Shir Hashirim is about a love story. It's about spring time, it's perfect for Pesach. That we read the book of Ruth on Shavuot, because it's about acceptance of mitzvot. It's about conversion, whatever that means. And it's perfect for Shavuot.  We read Esther on Purim, we read a Eicha (Lamentations) on Tisha B'Av. What's amazing about that teaching in Masechet Sofrim is it does not mention that we read Kohelet on Sukkot. That seems to be a later tradition. That was not part of the original tradition. And it might be that there's something in that Geoffrey, it was it was more communal, the community felt after the heaviness of Rosh HaShannah and Yom Kippur that we needed a book like Kohelet.

Geoffrey Stern  23:10

I think so. I'd like to just for the purposes of sharing my discovery that goes back 40 years about Near Eastern Wisdom Literature, to read some parallel texts. So in Ecclesiastes 1: 2 we read "Hevel Havalim, which now we know is a short breath, a short breath, otter futility, utter futility what real value is there for a man in all the gains he makes beneath the sun, one generation goes another comes, but the earth remains the same forever." Here's from The Epic of Gilgamesh, "Who my friend can scale Heaven, only the gods live forever under the sun. As for mankind numbered are their days, whatever they achieve is but the wind, even here though art afraid of death." There are stories about and parallels to this concept of riches that comes up, or even scholarly pursuits. Gilgamesh goes on, "do we build a house forever? Do we seal contracts forever? Do brothers divide shares forever, does hatred persist forever in the land. Since the days of yore, there has been no permanence, the resting of the dead how alike are they? Do they not compose a picture of death, the commoner and the noble?" These themes about the difference between us is less than what we have in common the Pauper in the king both end up in the same place, that riches won't give you anything. These are themes that are shared by all of humanity, and didn't change as a result of the revolution of the Jewish people. And if anything, if anybody knows anything, I believe in the in the past six months of Madlik, I believe that there is much that's unique about Judaism and we contributed so much. But we get to this moment. And we say, you know, it's all said and done, we've changed the way we celebrate the New Year. The other nations they make their earthly King into their ruler, we make God into our ruler we change the way we read our texts, other traditions hide it in a holy of holies. And let only the priestly caste read it. We democratize it, all of the changes that we've discussed, all of the revolutions that were led by the Hebrew project, when it's all said and done in Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashannah are all over. I think what we do is we make a an amazing stop. And we say, but at the end of the day, we're still human. At the end of the day, all we have is that short breath. And I think that, too, is an amazingly humbling, but also liberating concept. And maybe that's where the simcha comes in.

Adam Mintz  26:30

I think that's great. I think that that's really a nice, you know, a nice explanation, kind of for the evolution of Kohelet as almost a continuation of Yom Kippur. It's interesting that right after Kohelet that we have Simchat Torah which is really a celebration of the whole process, right? It's a celebration of the whole month, and that you can't have the celebration without having both Yom Kippur. And Kohelet. They're both part of the celebration, one without the other isn't good enough.

Geoffrey Stern  27:09

I mean, I totally agree. And it also makes us look a little bit differently at Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashannah, which actually are not really in history, either. They're really about us, as a universal people (humankind). If you think about the themes that I described before that are unique to the wisdom literature and the wisdom world. It's kind of interesting. Now when you look back, that you can see that Rosh Hashannah is actually a very universal holiday, we celebrate the birth of the world, or some say the birth of man. We we discuss who rules us and who doesn't. And then on Sukkot, even though there's an attempt to tie it into the exodus from Egypt, and it's not a great attempt, you know, everybody argues and says, Did they really the Jews really live in thatched roof structures? Or did they live in actual tents. But the point is, that there's this temptation to try to bring so called back into the other Regalim, the other pilgrimage, holidays, and make it kind of historic, but on the other hand, it's in nature, it's out of the house. I mean, you have to believe even in the days of the temple, they moved out of the temple and went into this sukkah. It literally takes what makes us human. And it brings us outside and I have to say that one idea, one thought that I had you mentioned Simchat Torah. You know, I said a second ago that in wisdom literature, when you say to "torah", you don't mean the Torah that was revealed or given at Sinai. When you say "torat immecha", you mean the wisdom of your parents, of your elders, have prior generations of lives already lived? And I wonder whether we have the license to celebrate one or the other or both torot... meaning to say this this confluence of finishing the yearly public reading of the Torah which is an amazing democratizing event. But there's also simchat torah, Simcha as described by by Rabbi Sacks which is this momentary, just take life by the coattails and laugh when you can and cry when you have to. And that torah that wisdom the simchat torah.... I really just thought about it kind of this morning when I was thinking about simchat torah.  Do we have that license? Do you give me that license? Adam,

Adam Mintz  27:10

I give you that license. I love it.

Geoffrey Stern  30:09

So it's, it's, it's really an amazing book and amazing tradition and we Jews, who always talk about how distinctive we are and how different we are ... on the culmination.... And I think you really can refer to Sukkot as a combination as a climax. And the climax of the climax again, is shmini atzeret, which again, the word ottzer means to gather in to retain, to keep everybody around. But the climax at the end of the day is when all is said and done. And now I'm gonna sound like I wrote wisdom. Sof davar Hakol nishma... what do we have, we all have the same sun and sky over us, we have the same end. It's such a universal message. And it's such an unvarnished message because if you read the wisdom literature, whether it's Jewish or Sumerian, or Mesopotamian, it doesn't pull any punches ever. You know, we can beg for our lives and for rain on Yom Kippur. And Rosh Hashannah. But when you read the wisdom literature, it makes it very clear, you can beg all you want, but the God or the gods, they act using their own logic, and all we have is just what we can grasp in a breath.

Adam Mintz  31:40

I think that's great. I think that there are so many different pieces here. I think that that's great. You know, so many Roh hashannah and Yom Kippur piece. The idea of the breath, I think Rabbi Sacks really captures so much by talking about the fact that hevel means a breath, I think that's great.

Geoffrey Stern  32:00

So I couldn't finish without going to one of my favorite folk songs of the 60s, which is Pete Seeger's Turn, turn, turn. And it probably is the first, maybe only time that a writer literally took the words of Scripture, and turned them into a hit song, and turn turn turn really just captures both in the title. And also in the lyrics. You know what we're talking about, that when all is said and done, it's just a cycle in a sense. And all we have is the ability to go one step at a time, go forward, there's a time for love. There's a time for hate. There's a time for peace. And what he added was, "I hope it's not too late". And what what I was surprised to find out is that first of all why he wrote this song, his agent told him Pete, cut out the revolutionary songs, no one wants to hear any more about changing the world. And for some reason he had in his notebook, the words of Kohelet. And he submitted them, and in his mind, Kohelet was a guy with a long beard and sandals, who was definitely a rebel rouser. But the agent said, It's from Scripture. Finally, you gave me something that I want. And a few years ago, Pete gave 45% of the royalties from the song to the Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions. So he made a political statement. He kept 50%. And then he said, 5%, he added on because he added, "I hope it's not too late". So those were his own words. But this story gave me simcha when I read it, and it showed us how we have to take the words that we study and that we read, make them our own dance to them, clap to them. And I just want to wish everybody an amazing Simchat Torah, whatever torah you're celebrating, and that we should all savor the moment and be able to savor those small little breaths that we make. And I have to say, Rabbi, it's been a wonderful few months I reading the Torah  with you. And one of the things that I will be celebrating is our partnership here every Friday, thank you so much.

Adam Mintz  34:47

You know, what more can we say next Friday. We get together to study Bereshit. That's an amazing thing. Rabbi Avraham talked about cyclical time and linear time. What an amazing thing that we go back to the beginning isn't it?

Geoffrey Stern  35:02

We start all over Turn, turn, turn.

Adam Mintz  35:08

Shabbat shalom. We are going to post this as a podcast. And I used to end every podcast with some music so you guessed it. This week, I will add a recording of Pete Seager singing, turn, turn, turn. And let's hope it's not too late. Shabbat Shalom and Hag Samayach.

Parshat Ha'Azinu - With the Yom Kippur liturgy fresh in our minds we explore a disturbing, persistent and infantile argument for forgiveness… that God forgive us for His sake. Using equal measure of Chutzpa and shaming, we argue that God, as our Father and as our Creator is ultimately responsible for our sins, the sins of his children/creations. We ask: How does God Respond? How should we respond?

Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/347781

Transcript:

Geoffrey Stern  00:01

Welcome to clubhouse Madlik disruptive Torah every week at four o'clock eastern. And we are recording this session and we will publish it on your favorite podcast platform as Madlik. So go ahead and give a listen. And if you do, please give us a star a two and a good review and feel free to share it with your friends. This week's parsha is Ha.azinu, And it is Moses's swan song to the Jewish people. And at times it can be pretty rough on the Jewish people. So it's in Deuteronomy 32. And there were three themes that I want to focus on today. But let's go ahead and read the verses in question. So it begins "Do you thus requite the Lord O dull and witless people. Is not he the father who created you, fashioned you and made you endure? Remember the days of old consider the years of ages past, ask your father, he will inform you, your elders, and they will tell you." So it starts by referring to a concept we've seen before, which is God, the Father, and God, the Creator of you. And then it goes on to say, "and he said, I will hide my countenance  from them, and see how they fare in the end, for they are a treacherous breed, children with no loyalty at all." So again, the focus is on children, who just do not follow in the footsteps of their parent, their Creator. And God introduces this concept of "hester panim", hiding his countenance from them, and says, see how they fare in the end. And the third theme is finally God says, You know, I would have destroyed you "I might have reduced them to no it made them memory cease among men, but for the fear of the taunts of the foe, their enemies who might misjudge and say, our own hand has prevailed. None of this was wrought by the Lord." And this is another argument that we've seen before, where Moses on many occasions says to God, if you destroy this people, what will the goyim say, what will the non Jews say? What will the Egyptian say? What will the world who has been watching this amazing project of taking a ragtag group of slaves, giving them freedom, bringing them into the desert, and building a new vision for social justice and society? What will happen if they are destroyed? What will everyone say about you and your project? So we have these three themes, God, the Father, God, the Creator, God, saying, I've had enough, I will hide my face from you and see what becomes of you. And finally, you know, I would have destroyed you, if not for what that will do to my street cred to what the world will say about you. And I want to pick up these themes, because they are so primal, to the story of the Bible, the five books of Moses, which were ending, so it's only natural that we can go back to the beginning, and look at the very first sin that was ever perpetrated. And of course, that is the sin of Eve, when she ate of the apple. But when God comes and confronts Adam, with this sin, what does Adam say? What is the response of man, of humanity to being confronted with sin? Genesis 3: 12, "the man said, the woman you put at my side, she gave me of the tree, and I ate." And as Rashi says, Here, he showed his ingratitude, "Kofer b'tovah". The idea that when man is caught sinning, the first thing he does is he blames his creator, he blames that being who gave him the break, who gave him that wife to be at his side, it's precisely there that he says, if you had not given her to me, I would not have failed. And this is a recurring theme that we're going to pick up throughout the Bible. And it's clearly to me in any case, a troubling one. In terms of blaming God or defining God, I should say, you have even Abraham, if you remember before Sodom, and he's saying to God, how can you destroy these people if you find 50 if you find 40 if you find 10 and he finally says "Far be it from you, Shall not the judge of all the earth deal justly?" It's again, he's not blaming God in this case, but he certainly is talking to God in a very assertive manner, saying that listen, God you have street creds, you are supposed to be this just being you can't act unjustly. I mean, even that smacks a little bit of, let me say it Chutzpah.

Adam Mintz  05:36

There is a very fine line between chutzpah, and the way that he speaks to God, I would agree 100%. You know, you kind of get the impression that God was much more human in the Torah, And therefore they could speak to God like this.

Geoffrey Stern  05:55

Yeah, and of course, we all know that the Torah speaks in the language of man "lo dibra Torah ela b'lashon b'nai adam". So whether it's God being more human, or the text and our Holy Writ being written in a way that we can understand, it's irrelevant. But I think you're absolutely correct. In the sense the Bible, gives us something that we can wrap our arms around, and in our perception of God, we perceive God to be just, so he has to act just and if he doesn't, we can complain against him. And that's a good message. But later on, when the children of Israel are in the desert. And they start complaining whether it's when the mana falls or when there's not enough meat, or when the spies come back. And at one point, the Gemora in Avada, Zahra puts the words into Moses as saying, "Moses said to the Jewish people, ingrates, children of ingrates, when the Holy One bless it be he said to the Jewish people, who would give that he had such a heart as this always... the point is that according to this piece of Talmud, every time that the Jews complain, and they say, God, you took us out of Egypt, you bought us here. It's all your fault. Or the reason it says ingrates son of ingrates is because he refers back to what Adam said to God. There's this overriding sense, not because God is the only one to complain, but maybe he's the biggest target, that children of Israel actually act almost like children who are constantly coming back and saying, not that we failed, but that you failed us. You created us, you bought it, you own it type of thing. This ingrates, children of ingrates Kofi Toba Benei, Kofu Tova.

Adam Mintz  08:08

Yeah, you're like that? That's a very strong image isn't it?

Geoffrey Stern  08:12

Absolutely. And it's, it just seems like a strange way to kind of move forward. Nothing good can can come out of it. Unless I'm missing something, you know. We were talking before how the the Torah is written in the language of man, but we still can control how we perceive things and how we represent things. And we're representing a situation where God yes, sometimes can inspire us, but on the other hand becomes a straw dummy or pinyatta that we can just batter.

Adam Mintz  08:56

I think the word is a target.

Geoffrey Stern  08:59

Absolutely. With a capital T. ..... And, and, you know, that's why this this recurring notion of what will the Egyptians say? What will the people of the world say? It's kind of a hybrid argument. It's not only God, you put us in this situation, but because you put this in this situation, you know, have to protect your flank, because people are going to say you started this program, this experiment. You took this raggle rap of a people out of Egypt, you said that slaves could be free people, and we're failing. And so it not only is it your fault, but humanity will cast blame on you as as a failure at the most lowest level. But as Someone who has given up and walked away.

Adam Mintz  10:04

That's an important idea, by the way, the idea that God will be a failure. I think there's something to that. God is very worried that people will think him a failure. "lama Yomru Mitrayim laymor" Right? Why should the Egyptian say that God took us out to kill us in the desert? It's a very strong idea.

Geoffrey Stern  10:33

And I think, stepping back for a second, what it really reminds us of is that this whole project, the project of the Bible, is for all humanity. We've touched upon this theme in previous episodes, where God says, You know, I tried with Adam, I tried with Noah, it failed. I really wanted this for all humanity. I didn't want to have chosen people. But this became my plan B, or C, or D, my default strategy. But ultimately, it's important what happens in this program, because the world is watching. And I think that's the most maybe favorable way that we can characterize this argument of what will the rest of the world say? But certainly, I find it a little pathetic. I have to say,

Adam Mintz  11:34

That's interesting. Pathetic. Tell everybody. Why do you think it's pathetic?

Geoffrey Stern  11:38

Well, again, .... you were given great opportunities. And the Jewish people, certainly while they came from a very troubled background, they were given by this God amazing opportunities, they saw the Red Sea part, they saw the revelation at Sinai. And given that, and given the opportunities that they've been given, to dream about going back to Egypt, and to blame God for putting them in this situation does smack of .... I can't say it better than Rashi: ingratitude.

Adam Mintz  12:21

Right. I mean, that's the word ingratitude. And that's the word of the parsha is ingratitude. Let's just to go back to the parsha, the way you introduced it for a minute. It's interesting that everything's going to work out, okay. That ha'azinu ends on a high note, .... that you're going to find God and then everything's going to end up working out. Okay. We know that that's not always the case. Things don't always end up end up. Okay. It's kind of interesting, isn't it?

Geoffrey Stern  12:55

Well, absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, again, here's a case where the Jews are being put on the spot, put on trial and being castigated, and they come back and they say, well, it's all your fault. You put us in the situation, you're talking about those situations where no one's castigating them, but life is tough. And again, they go back, and they blame their parents so to speak, I want to pick up on that theme of the Father, because in Numbers, so we're not talking midrash,  we're not talking commentary. We're talking the book of Bamidbar/Numbers. Moshe is in one of these situations that he's in multiple times, where God says, let's just cut the cord, I will destroy this people, and I'll begin afresh with you. And Moses turns back in Numbers 11, verse 12, he said, "Did I conceive all this people? Did I bear them that you should say to me carry them in your bosom as a nurse carries an infant, to the land that you have promised on oath to their fathers?" You can't but take away from this, that Moses is almost, again saying to God, I'm not their father, you're their father, you cannot put on me this blame and this responsibility of carrying them. But again, it comes back down to if I were the father, or in this case, God, you are the Father, you gave birth to them, you created this project. You need to fulfill your promise, even if they let you down. So the two themes are kind of inextricably connected.

Adam Mintz  14:50

You know, I saw an amazing story before Yom Kippur. The story is of a man who sits down before Yom Kippur and he takes out his book And the book has a list of all his sins. I did this wrong, and I did this wrong. And then he opens another book. And the other book has a list of all the things God did wrong.... you know, you killed this person, this person died of cancer. And there was a flood and there was a hurricane and all these things, and the man looked up to heaven, He says, God, I'll make you a deal. If you forgive me, I'll forgive you.

Geoffrey Stern  15:27

Well, you know, that sounds like one of these wonderful Hasidic stories.

Adam Mintz  15:33

it is Yeah, but it's kind of related to your point.

Geoffrey Stern  15:37

It is. And I would go, one step further. Some of the Hasidim, especially the Breslevers,  would go out into the woods, and they would pray to God and call Tata, tata, my dad, my dad, they focused on the real parent child relationship. And I assume that that has good aspects of it. And it also has some negative aspects too,

Adam Mintz  16:04

right? For sure. I mean, it's just, you know, like all these Hasidic stories, it's just to kind of give you an impression, but it's a strong impression, I think.

Geoffrey Stern  16:14

I agree. I was thinking about this during all the liturgy and prayers of Yom Kippur. And I was really struck by the fact that this argument that we have kind of uncovered the one of slight ingratitude slight chutzpah, where the sinner turns around and says to the accuser, in this case God, Hey, buddy, you put me in this spot. It's actually very well presented in the liturgy. So the most famous prayer is Avenu Malkenu. And Barbra Streisand does a great job of singing it. We all love it. In the Talmud there's an amazing story about a situation where there was a drought, and a rabbi was unsuccessful. Rabbi Eliezer was unsuccessful in getting the rain to come. And Rabbi Akiva, one of our buddies and friends went ahead, and he invented this prayer. And he said, Avanu Malkenu lmancha Rachem aleynu" which means God our Father, for your sake, have mercy upon us. And of course, you could say that I'm kind of picking words here. But there was no question that later when they added to these verses, they said, if not for us, then for your sake, but it's clear from the perspective that he gave it number one calling god father and emphasizing that fatherly relationship, and then saying again, it's for your sake, do it? Does he mean for your sake? Because you gave birth to us? Is it because for us sake, because of what others will speak? Well, this question of in the Avinu Malkenu which is such a significant part of our prayers, Rabbi Akiva introduces both the "avinu" part that God is our father, but also this this little insight that we've been working on, which is because your our father, it's lamancha do it for your sake. And I think that, that's very key to the argument. The other place where it comes up is the most beautiful poem and prayer that we have, it's like "Clay in the hands of the pot potter". And it seems like just a beautiful little story based on verses in Jeremiah and other prophets. "We say like clay in the hands of the potter, if he wills, he can expand it, if he wills he can contract it. So too, we in your hand, preserver of kindness, heed the covenant and not the accuser. Like stone in the hand of the Mason." It's a beautiful, beautiful poem, but is it not doing the same thing? Is it not basically saying, hey, God, we're the Golem and you fashioned us. We are the statue. We are the rudder. We are the gem. Call us what you want. But at the end of the day, you made us You made a covenant with us. You need to protect us against the accuser. Is it not the same argument?

Adam Mintz  19:59

The answer is it does sound like the same argument doesn't it? What you're saying Geoffrey is it's chutzpah?

Geoffrey Stern  20:11

Well, I am and I always thought it but then I was reading Jonathan Sacks' Machzor and he actually brings up Shemot Rabba, which is a midrash. Where it says, What is the meaning of We Are the clay, you are the potter. And it says "Israel said, master of the universe, you have caused it to be written about us like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, Israel, therefore do not leave us even though we sin and provoke you for we are merely the clay and you are the potter, consider if a potter makes a jar and leaves a pebble in it. When it comes out of the furnace, it will leak from the hole left by the pebble and lose the liquid poured into it, who caused the jar to leak and lose its liquid, the potter who left the pebble in the jar as it was being made. This is how Israel pleaded before God, Master of the Universe, You created us with an evil inclination for my youth, as it says for the inclination of man's heart is evil from his youth. And it is that that has caused us to sin, since you have not removed from us the inclination that instigates us to sin." And Rabbi Sacks points out that the whole argument is based on a plan words. We talked about "atah Yotzrenu" that you created us and we are homer b'yad haYotzer". We are material in the hand of the Yotzer. And there's the Yetzer HaRah" So it makes the case that all of our deficiencies be blamed on our Yotzer on that who created us. So it's it's not only what I hear, I think the rabbi's heard this as well,

Adam Mintz  22:07

That's very, very good. That's a nice idea. Where does Rabbi Sacks say that?

Geoffrey Stern  22:11

Well, he says it in his introduction to the Yom Kippur Machzor, he has a whole paragraph on clay in the hands of the potter. And it's in the in the notes for that for this session. But he quotes Shemot Rabbah and of course, it's the rabbi's who who make this case. And he goes even further to say that, maybe, and this is something that a theme that I have not brought up, is that maybe we don't need to attribute this to a parental relationship, rebelling against one's parents or blaming every deficiency on one's parents. Maybe it's just dawggone chutzpah. And he says the Gemora in Sanhedrin says that when it comes to prayer, you need some chutzpah so it's complicated. It's complicated, like parent children relationships. And we probably can't get away from it. But certainly to identify this issue of constantly blaming God for our deficiencies, or blaming our parents for our deficiencies is something that has its place but also can be played out a little bit. I think.

Adam Mintz  23:36

I think that's really nice. I mean, I think that's a that's a really beautiful idea. You know, We miss Rabbi Sacks, this is just about a year since his passing, and we miss Rabbi Sacks. And you see the amazing insight he has to this is really beautiful.

Geoffrey Stern  23:51

Well, absolutely. The third theme that I brought up was this question of God hiding his face. And I just wonder, I don't want to put any of our listeners on the spot. But if anyone is a psychologist who can talk about parent children, relationships, that would be insightful. What do you do with a child who constantly blames you for all of their deficiencies? We've gone through half an hour where the Jewish people say, hey, God, you took us out of Egypt, you put us into this situation. We are just a bunch of raggle taggle slaves. We have no idea what freedom and responsibility is. It's all you're to blame. We all said yesterday, we are clay in the hands of the potter. God You made us You must have left a marble in the dough, because we didn't turn out so well. It's your fault. And I would love to give as a suggested answer is at a certain point, God says "haster panim". I will hide my face the best thing that I can do Is to wean you of that relationship, is to pull away. And I think that's the third element here, that God says to the Jewish people in the song of ha'azinu. He says, you, you blame me for everything, you forget that I'm your parent in a good way. So "I will hide my countenance from them, and see how they fare in the end". And I think this question of seeing how they fare in the end is normally taken as part of a punishment. Like, we'll see what happens to you now, you know, .... this is what you want, you want that new car or you want that, to do it your way, you don't want to listen to me, well, let's see how that works out. But on the other hand, it might be a blessing. And God might be saying, Listen, I have no choice, I have to pull back. You need to learn on your own, to stand on your own two feet, to stop casting blame going backwards to those who have empowered you. And I'll see how it turns out. And maybe God is saying, hopefully, with a sense of hope, we'll see how it turns out.

Adam Mintz  26:15

I think that's beautiful.

Geoffrey Stern  26:17

I mean, I think that the question of how Sukkot and Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanna all come together, is maybe part of this, this answer, where we're literally moving out of our house, God (our dad) is kicking us out. And we go into the sukka. And we only have selves, and maybe a few pieces of branch or straw protecting us. The the word that the Psalms talks about is the same word as God uses when he hides his face. It says that you shall be (and this is from the Psalm that we read all through the High Holidays and into Sukkot). And that is "and he will shelter me in his sukka, on an evil day", we create our own shelter. We create our own life, we have to stand on our own two feet. We are surrounded by the beauty of nature and the crops that we have grown. And maybe that's part of the answer. But that certainly is part of the answer for those of us who may be it doesn't resonate. In terms of the liturgy in the services that we do in the synagogue, where we try the blame game, and maybe after Ne'eela we're ready to step outside, and to welcome our new selves with a smile and the simcha that you talked about Rabbi a few weeks ago.

Adam Mintz  27:45

I think that's beautiful. And I just want to wish everybody Shabbat Shalom, and enjoy hag samayach. And look forward to seeing everybody next week. Maybe next week Geoffrey, since it's Shabbat Hol HaMoed, and we read the book of Kohelet, Ecclesiastes, we could choose something from Ecclesiastes.

Geoffrey Stern  28:02

That's a great idea. Okay, let's let's think about that. Shabbat shalom. And for those of you including Stav and Yohanan, and anyone else who wants to continue the conversation, welcome to the after party. Stav. How are you my friend?

Stav Stern  28:20

Oh, good. Geoffrey. I'm live from California, from Los Angeles traffic. And you just brought up, I came in a little late. But you just brought up something in me because I was thinking during this Yom Kippur for the first time, I have fasted wholeheartedly in a while. And I was thinking a lot about forgiveness. And then I realized that most people or I usually think about asking forgiveness on Yom Kippur. But this time, I was really into also the idea of giving forgiveness. And, you know, when you talked about blaming God for making us imperfect, with the yetzer hara, and all that I was thinking, is also part of the ideal, so to forgive God in any way for that, and just came up to me and I wonder your thoughts?

Geoffrey Stern  29:20

I definitely think that's part of it. I mean, there's another prayer that says at the end of it "aval anachnu v'avotenu Hatanu", that we and our parents have sinned, and I always was curious, why does it say we and our parents have sinned? Again, is it part of this strategy of saying, hey, it's not just me, it's it's my parents also. Or are we talking about that God (our Father in) heaven? The is the avotenu... Hey, God, were both not blameless here. If we're talking as a nation, you freed us You put us in the desert, we didn't have a clue about freedom and responsibility. If it's talking about us as individuals, it's a it's a real heavy load that that we're asked to do as we kind of journey and navigate through this world. And while it's probably not healthy, to totally blame God, I do think that the relationship is such whether it's because of Avinu Malkenu that he's both our king and our parent, but he's also a member of a covenant. And the covenant is two ways. So I think that's a wonderful insight. I am so into Sukkot right now, it's amazing how you can switch gears, but I'm ready to move out of the house. I'm like a little kid who's moving out of the house for the first time. And I look at my, my father, both in life and in heaven. And I just smile and I say, you know what, Bygones are bygones. I'm out. Now, I'm going to make my own way. And you're going to be a part of it. I think you kind of go through the whole process. But I do think that forgiving God is, as as dastardly as it sounds, it's, it's probably part of the process as well.

Stav Stern  31:24

Thank you, Geoffrey.

Geoffrey Stern  31:26

Thank you Stav. Okay. Well, unless there's anybody else who has any suggestions or questions. I am going to wish everybody a wonderful year, a Shabbat Shalom, and get out there, build a sukkah or find a tree to sit underneath this shade. And just enjoy these early days of Fall. And be thankful for the two feet that you can stand on and the air you can breathe, take a deep breath in and a deep breath out. And maybe that's the ultimate reason why Sukhot is the final the final day of forgiveness and rejuvenation that were given. So Shabbat shalom. Thank you all for joining

Parshat Vayeilech - We review the septennial Hakhēl convocation where the Torah is read publicly as an opportunity to explore the revolutionary nature of the Hebrew Alphabet from both a social and technological perspective. In so doing, maybe we shed some light on the proliferation of alphabetical acrostics in the Psalms and later liturgy and piyyutim.

Sefaria Source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/346294

Transcript:

Geoffrey Stern  00:00

Welcome to Madlik disruptive Torah. We are every Friday at four o'clock here on clubhouse Eastern time. And we go ahead and record this. And then we post it as a podcast called Madlik. And it's available on all of your favorite podcasting channels. And if you like what you hear today, go ahead and listen to it as a podcast and share it with your friends, and give us a few stars and say something nice about us, in any case, this week portion Vayelech. And it's Deuteronomy 31, for the most part. And in Deuteronomy 31, verse nine, it says, "And Moses wrote down this teaching, and he gave it to the priest, sons of Levy, who carried the Ark of the Lord's covenant, and to all the elders of Israel. And Moses instructed them as follows, every seventh year, the year set for shmitah, at the Feast of Booths, which will start in another week or two, when all Israel comes to appear before the Lord your God, in the place that he will choose, you shall read this teaching aloud, in the presence of all Israel, gather the people, men, women, children, and the strangers in your communities that they may hear. And so learn to revere the Lord your God, and to observe faithfully every word of this teaching. Their children too who have not had the experience shall hear and learn to revere the Lord your God, as long as they live in the land that you are about to cross the Jordan to possess." And then a few verses down, it finishes off by saying, "When Moses had put down in writing, the words of this teaching to the very end "ad tumam" , Moses charged the Levites to carry the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord saying, Take this book of teaching and place it beside the Ark of the Covenant of the Lord your God, and let it remain there as a witness against you." So Wow, this is a pretty fundamental law, it touches upon a public reading of the Torah, it touches upon the seventh year, the cycle of the shmita, of the sabbatical year that we are starting as we speak. And it also talks about placing that Torah scroll, if you will, into the ark right next to the 10 commandments. So rabbi, what says this to you?

Adam Mintz  02:47

So I want to go to the end, it's so interesting that the Torah scroll plays a role here, it all seems to be about strengthening our commitment to Torah and to God, and therefore everything has a Torah scroll that is right in the middle of it. And I think that's really, really interesting. At the end of each shmita cycle, they used to gather all the people in Jerusalem, the men, the women, the children, and the king used to read the Torah. So really, even the sabbatical year, is about strengthening our commitment to Torah.

Geoffrey Stern  03:28

I totally agree. But I have to confess that when I tell people, and I've been telling everybody I can, trust me, that this is the sabbatical year, unlike the Sabbath that occurs every seven days. And I'd like to think, we can discuss this on another afternoon. I'd like to think it was one of the Jews greatest contributions to culture and society, a day of rest. It's actually a statement of human rights because you rest your servants rest to animals were at rest, that everybody kind of gets whether they keep the Sabbath on a Saturday or Sunday or a Friday, or they just understand they have to reboot once in a while. But the idea of the seventh year cycle, the sabbatical that has only really survived in academia. And I hope it's still the case where academics take off a year to broaden their horizons, to travel to see other academics and maybe go out into the field. It struck me when I read this portion, that Wow, there actually is a connection because mostly when we think of the sabbatical year, we think of letting the land life fallow, and all of the other things I discussed before, but there is clearly an intellectual aspect of this and that's what you were talking about Rabbi in terms of both faith and understanding The idea was in this sabbatical year, we all have to give ourselves a chance to be exposed to that which is important to us. But it kind of works both ways. Because on the Sabbath, we also read from the Torah publicly, and the rabbi's understood the connection between this because those of you who have been in an orthodox synagogue and know that the first Aliyah, the first calling up to the Torah, is for the Cohen. And the second one is for the Levi The Tom wood learns it literally from this verse, if you will call. It says that, in verse nine, that Moses wrote down this teaching, gave it to the priests the kohanim, sons of Levi. From here, the rabbi's learned that the colon gets the first Aliyah and the Levi gets the second. And then of course, the Israelite gets the third and onward. But I'm much less interested in the law. And I'm more interested in the connection the rabbi's took from this annual reading or the I should say, the seven year cycle of reading it in the sabbatical year, and reading it every week. In both cases, we're kind of doing this amazing public discourse of our most important texts.

Adam Mintz  06:20

Yes. I mean, and I think that's a super interesting thing. The fact that the Torah, even though study is an individual act, we do it by ourselves, we do it with a havruta (study partner), with one other individual. But actually, the reading of the Torah is always a public act. That's something fascinating, isn't it? Geoffrey.  Right, the Torah  is a public act, we read it in the temple, we read it in this Synagogue, it's always public.

Geoffrey Stern  06:50

I totally agree. And we're going to get a little bit more into that in a second. But before we do, the other thing that is kind of interesting to me is that the reading of it is also a conduit into the future. And you see that in two ways. If you recall, in verse 13, it says, and their are children who have not had the experience shall hear and learn. And the idea is, even though they were speaking in the present tense, and as it said, they were crossing the Jordan into the promised land. This was not to be limited to the people in the room, so to speak. This was the vehicle for transmitting this experience into the future, this interactive, maybe immersive reading of our sacred texts in public, placing them in a tactile form on the side of the shattered and full 10 commandments was an amazing, both commentary and commitment to what the written and spoken word can do in terms of transmitting ideas and values into the future.

Adam Mintz  08:05

I couldn't agree more with that. I think that that's a very important thing. And that's why you know, we're kinda not focusing on this, but this is the end of the Torah. This is the third to the last portion in the Torah.  We have Ha'azinu next week, and then on Simchat Torah, we finish the Torah with Zot HaBracha. This is the end Geoffrey. So whatever is going on now is a lesson forever.

Geoffrey Stern  08:32

I love the fact that you say it is the end, this is it got it both gives this statement more importance. But it also raises another fascinating Talmudic discussion. And that is: the last six or eight verses of the Torah are written after, in the narrative, after Moses dies. So the question comes, how can it be in our verses that Moses gives the complete Torah to the priests and the tribe of Levi? If in those last few verses are things that clearly he could not have written? And the Talmud gives two answers. One answer is: You're right. Moses, wrote everything except the last eight verses and Joshua wrote the book under his name, the Book of Joshua, and the last eight verses, but what I find so dramatic and those of you who were with us last week know how much drama there can be in our wonderful Torah. I love the answer. That was Rabbi Shimon's. And he says, Is it possible that the Torah scroll was missing a single letter, but it has said take this Torah scroll. Rather until this point, the Holy One blessed be He dictated and Moses repeated after him and wrote the text, from the point where it says that Moses has died, the Holy One, blessed be he dictated, and Moses wrote with tears", just an unbelievable image of someone waiting their own obituary, so to speak. But again, the reason I bring it up is because it really parallels this concept of having the children who had not experienced listen to it. Even in the ending of the Torah, it is understood that the writing of the Torah either continues in this hand of other people like Joshua, or that we are all part of a narrative, and we can't experience every part that we're in. But by hearing it and listening to it, we become a part of that narrative. And to me, Moses writing and tears streaming down his cheeks, it's just almost too much to bear.

Adam Mintz  11:04

I mean, Geoffrey, you're not so surprised, because as we all know, if you're anybody, The New York Times has your obituary on file, right? famous people get their obituaries written ahead of time. So it's interesting, the whole idea of, you know, writing your own obituary, I'll just tell you that there was a rabbi, his name was the Vilna Gaon, a great Rabbi in Lithuania, in the 1700s. And he says that the word for tears "Dema" can also be translated as the word "demua", which means mixed up. And he says that what happened was that God commanded Moshe, like a Scrabble board to take all of the letters that would appear in the last eight verses at the Torah, but not to arrange them in order. And Joshua was the one who arranged them in order.

Geoffrey Stern  12:01

Wow, that absolutely blows me away. And we are going to come back to it but to give you a little taste of how we're going to come back to that is, so much of the Yom Kippur liturgy has to do with that alphabet that you just described. Whether it's the "Ashamnu"  that is an alphabetic acronym and has our alphabet or whatever. So this story that you just told of the Vilna Gaon explanation of Joshua putting the letters together is something that really resonates with me and we are going to come back to. Michael Posnick welcome to the Bimah.

Michael Posnik  12:45

Pleasure to be here. I just have a question. Is it possible that the word for tears could be from "dom"  from the"demama" that Moses wrote this?

Adam Mintz  12:59

Like in in "Unetaneh Tokef"  "v'Kol demamah daka yishoma"

Michael Posnik  13:04

That's right that he wrote it in silence...

Adam Mintz  13:06

It's nice. Technically speaking, the root of the word dema is Dalet Mem Ayin, the root of the word 'dimama" meaning silence. is Dalet Mem Mem. These are two different words. It's a nice sermon. But technically speaking in terms of language, it's not really the same word.

Geoffrey Stern  13:32

And of course, you have Aaron who after his two sons died, it says "vaYidom", and  normally translated as silent. Is that the word that it should be translated?

Adam Mintz  13:44

The word "dom" is "demama"  We say in Unetana Tokef, We blow the mighty Shofar "vekol demama daka Yishama" But the sound that we hear is a silent or quiet sound.

Geoffrey Stern  14:06

Fantastic. The truth is, and this will also come up in our discussion, that there are those who believe and I think the the most prominent proponents of this theory, were Martin Buber, and Franz Rosenzweig. And their current student who's a professor named Everett Fox, who believes that much of the Torah has to be listened to as much as read. And therefore it gives you a little bit more, I think, flexibility and wiggle room -  poetic license if you will, to make some of these connections. But even if, from a strict grammatical point of view, there are limitations. Then there's also the pun and I think that the biblical text and certainly Talmudic texts We're very sensitive to words that might have been different, but sounded alike that conjure up certain emotions and certain responses. So I think there's no question that the connection that you made Michael is is there at some level.

Adam Mintz  15:14

Yeah, very nice. And especially because it relates to Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur with Unetana Tokef. It really is just right. So thank you so much, Michael.

Geoffrey Stern  15:23

So let's, let's move on a little bit. The title of today's episode, if you will, is the Aleph Beit Revolution. And the reason why it is a revolution is there are scholars...  the one I most recently read is somebody named Joshua Berman, who wrote a book Created Equal - How the Bible Broke with Ancient political thought, who believe that what happened when the Aleph Beit was created in Canaan was as revolutionary as the printing press when it was created in Europe. And we all know what happened when the (Guttenberg) printing press was created. within a very short time, not only did people for the first time get to read their Bible, because that was the first book that was written and popularized publicized. But they were people like Luther, who were able to get out a mimeograph machine, so to speak, and start posting things on the doors of the church. And all of a sudden, our whole revolution occurred within Christianity. And you could even argue maybe the Judeo-Christian tradition, because people were all of a sudden exposed to text in ways that they never were. And these scholars argue that when the Jews, the Israelites were in Canaan, they were surrounded by two empires who pretty much used cuneiform and  hieroglyphics. These are highly intricate ways of expressing whether it's numbers or events, or narratives or stories, using pictures, and the vocabulary was so large, that only the professional scribes could, could master it. So it was something that was never given to the general public. And even when they had, like the Gilgamesh epic, or Homer and Euripides, these were things that were written on stele on stone, they were hidden within the temple, even during the New Year ceremony that we discussed before called Akitu in Babylon. It was literally the king who read these things in private in the Holy of Holies, if you will, and what these scholars are saying about the alphabet, which has 22 symbols, the word that we use for the alphabet in Hebrew is "otiot". And those of you who are sensitive to the Hebrew knows the power of the word "Ot", it is a symbol, but from those symbols, you can ultimately put together any sort of concept. And all of a sudden, the written words of the Torah, were now publicly available to the congregation. And notice here it says, men, women and children who are here and who are not here, it was literally a revolution. As big as the revolution we discussed in prior weeks, where God says, You have no other kings besides me, I'm your only King. You don't worship anybody else here too, you get your information directly from the source, and you can interact with that information. And this was an amazing revolution that is on par with anything else that came out of Canaan and the ancient Israelites and included with Hebrew was Akkadian and Ugaritic, and Phoenician and actually, the Greeks got the 22 letter alphabet, from the Phoenicians, they've said it themselves. When we talk about the Delta virus, we have alpha, beta, delta, there are no words like that in Greek, those are words that come from the Aleph Beit gimel dalet, dalet, is delta, Aleph is alpha. As we approach the new year. This is revolutionary with a capital R.

Adam Mintz  19:56

Yes, I mean, I'm not an expert in alphabet, but yeah, this is all All fascinating material fascinating.

Geoffrey Stern  20:02

And it puts into a totally different perspective, this concept of the public reading of the text.  We think read, you need someone who is literate, who can literally read. But in the Torah, the word that we use is "Li'Kro". And "Li'kro" is similar to what I was saying before, when I talked about Buber and Rosenzweig, it equally applies to reading as it applies to listening or hearing...  to calling out. And so really, I think that the this image of the Torah ending, and it's saying that every seven years, and by extension, every seven days, the Torah is to be read in a vernacular, which literally means a people's language, and can be discussed, really ties into so much that we've been talking about on Madlik in terms of the ability for man to own and introduce and interact with our holy texts.

Adam Mintz  21:19

Michael, You actually began this conversation? With your discussion of the word to my mind? Do you have any thoughts on this?

Michael Posnik  21:30

Just a few come up, I've had the good fortune to be studying Nehemiah. And there, when it's described, when Israel read the Torah, it was read in four different ways. It was read exactly as the text presents it. And then there was someone who did the vernacular so that people could understand that if they didn't know the Hebrew, and then there were two other ways, which are not quite clear what's meant. And on Rosh Hashanna I attended a service of the New Shul, which was outdoors, a couple 100 people in a park in Brooklyn, and, and the Torah was read was held up by two gentlemen, and a 13, or 14 year old girl layned (chanted). And then she layned a couple of pesukim (verses). And then a man, a man with a beautiful voice sang the translation of those pesukim And then Frank London, the trumpeter played the emotional life. On his trumpet. It was very, very, very powerful. So it goes out to the mind, it goes out to the heart, it goes out to the body in the sense that if you listen to it, you might act differently, which would be a great benefit for all of us.

Adam Mintz  22:55

Hey, Geoffrey, that's amazing, because that's really what you said. And that is the experience of reading is actually much deeper than the way we understand reading. But it's about listening. Reading and speaking is where you didn't even discuss the fact that reading is music. And Geoffrey we can actually talk about the fact that the Torah is read in a special tune. And actually on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur that tune is a little different reflective of a more somber kind of Rosh Hashannah and Yom Kippur spirit. I mean, it's extremely striking; the tune for the Torah reading. On Rosha Hashannah and Yom Kippur at least to me is one of the highlights of Rosh Hashanna and Yom Kipper.

Geoffrey Stern  23:40

Absolutely I have to echo what you said, Michael, I went to an African American synagogue in Chicago outside of Chicago. I believe the rabbi's name is Rabbi Capers C. Funnye Jr. (an African-American rabbi, who leads the 200-member Beth Shalom B'nai Zaken Ethiopian Hebrew Congregation of Chicago, Illinois) He's literally a cousin of Michelle Obama. And they read the Torah exactly as you describe. And it's exactly as the Talmud describes it, it was with a "Mitargaminan" with a translator. So the person would read the verses "Bereshit Barah Elohim et aha Shamayim ve'et HaAretz"  And in the same chant, someone would say, "In the beginning, God created the heavens in the earth." And it was such a moving experience because we forget so many times when we read from the Torah publicly, what an empowering spiritual, and I would say, revolutionary, democratizing thing that we are doing in terms of "you need to understand this". This is not something that's hidden. This is not something that we don't want you to understand. We want you to ask every question and to provide your novel explanation. And there's the music, you're absolutely right, you can approach it on every different level.

Michael Posnik  24:56

What you said before, about reading is also listening And the question is for each of us, what are we listening to? While that's going on. What are we hearing? And how deeply does the listening go? In in real terms, what are we actually hearing? or listening to? When we hear the words of the Torah? This is a real question, I think for all of us, and not just the Torah, the davening (praying)  all of it, what are we really, really listening to? What are those words? Really? How deep do those words go? Because they come from a deep place. Do we hear it? how deeply do we go?

Geoffrey Stern  25:42

I totally agree. The only thing that I would add and I want to pick up on Rabbi Adam's earlier comment about the Vilna Gaon saying that when Joshua wrote the last eight verses of the Torah that describe Moses death, Moses had actually scrambled it, Joshua put out the letters, and had the letters combined. And for those of you who know, Hasidic stories, about the High Holidays, you probably have all heard one version or another of the beautiful story.  It's the last service on the holiest day of the year of Yom Kippur. And the name of the service is Ne'ilah, because the gates of prayer are about to close. And everybody is thirsty and hungry, and waiting for those gates to close, and for the shofar to be sounded so they can all go home and eat. And there is the great Hasidic rabbi, whether it's the Ba'al Shem Tov or the Maggid of Mezrich, who knows who is standing and waiting and waiting, and the stars come out, and the sun goes down, and he's waiting, and he's waiting. And finally, 20 minutes after he should have closed the ark, he closes it. And all of the students come and the people say what happened. And he said, there was a little peasant boy in the back, and the peasant boy had never gone to a Cheder, never gone into Hebrew school, never learned anything except the Aleph bet. And all he was doing was repeating over the letters of the alphabet of the Aleph Bet, and saying, God, you put them together into the prayer, and the Ba'al Shem Tov said, we've been here for 24 hours, we've been here for 10 days, we've been here for the whole month of Ellul, and we haven't been able to break through the gates of prayer, and the purity and the intensity of this child's repeating over the Aleph Beit (in the same way that Joshua repeated it over, according to the Vilna Gaon story) is what has opened up the gates of prayer. And I just have always been struck by that question, because yes, Michel, it is the depth of the message. But sometimes, it's just the sound of the letter possibly, or in this case, coming from my kind of research in the last few days. Maybe it's just the revolution of that alphabet, the fact that we all have the right and the ability to portray ourselves and to express ourselves. But I love that story. And I love the fact that yes, it's at every level.

Adam Mintz  28:33

I mean, that story captures really, what, what it means to to appreciate experience. I mean, here, Geoffrey, you're really jumping from reading to experiential. And I think that's probably what Buber meant. You need to experience the text, not just to read it.

Geoffrey Stern  28:54

Yeah, the prayer that we say that really comes to mind is the Ashamnu new prayer. It's the prayer where we confess all of our sins, it's only said on Yom Kippur, and it's in alphabetical order. And according to Buber, who you just mentioned, the reason why the Ba'al Shem Tov explained, is he says, if you're doing your sins, there's no end to it. So luckily, the alphabet has only these 22 letters. So we can we can end somewhere. But again, it just seems throughout the whole day, and I encourage all of you to pay attention to the machzor to the prayer book. There seems to be such an emphasis on the alphabetical acrostics, whether it's in the poems in the Piyuttim, or whether in the Ashamnu prayer, and there's something special there. There's something special about the alphabet and I'm not talking even on a mystical level, just that we revolutionized the world and we were part of that revolution, in giving every Jew and every human being the ability to decode the meaning of past generations and make their contribution into the future. And that's an awesome responsibility, but also an amazing capability that we have

Adam Mintz  30:19

Amazing. So how are we going to bring this back to, to the shmita? and to the Torah that was placed in front of the people. How did how does all this relate to that Geoffrey in our last minute?

Geoffrey Stern  30:33

Well, it just seems to me that the fact that this rule was brought up at the very end of the Torah, almost as the climax, shows how important it is the contribution of our tradition, that the Torah and the words that are written on it, are so so valued. Anybody who comes to a synagogue is so impressed by the fact that there are no images but the ark opens up and we worship our book, we are called the People of the Book. And that's our contribution that the value of the written word and the spoken word and the heard word and the transmission of that word. And the conversation is ultimately one of our most proudest and most awe inspiring contributions to the world. And to me, it's something that we have to rejoice in and also be obligated by

Adam Mintz  31:35

that's a beautiful thought Geoffrey, as we enter Yom Kippur, I want to wish everybody a Shabbat Shalom, thank you, Geoffrey, and g'mar Hatimah Tovah. Everybody should have an easy and meaningful fast and we look forward to next Friday. So on Yom Kippur, you can be looking forward to your Madlik class the following day, that we're going to be talking the parsha of Ha'Azinu next week. Shabbat Shalom, everybody.

Geoffrey Stern  31:58

Shabbat Shalom and an easy fast and a wonderful Shabbat to you all. Look forward to seeing you next week.

parshat nitzavim (deuteronomy 30)

Join Geoffrey Stern, Rabbi Adam Mintz and Theatre Director and Professor Michael Posnik in a live recording of Madlik Clubhouse as they explore the verse in Deuteronomy 30 that proclaims that the Torah is not in Heaven. We explore it in context and in the agada. We take a literary journey into the iconic story of the oven of akhnai.

Sefaria source Sheet: www.sefaria.org/sheets/345182

Transcript:

Geoffrey Stern  00:00

This week's parsha is nitzavim and you are listening to Madlik weekly disruptive Torah. And by disruptive, we mean Torah that hopefully makes you think about the Torah slightly differently, from a new angle, with a fresh pair of lenses, revisit old friends, as I often do, or meet new characters, new stories and react to them in a fresh way. And we record this clubhouse, and we post it as a podcast on all of your favorite podcasting platforms. So if you miss it, or if you want to share it with somebody, if you want to give us a few stars and a nice review, go check out Madlik. And so we want to get started, this is actually a very special week, because it's the last Shabbat, the last week of the year. So we have to finish dramatically. And today, I'd like to say this is the dramatic version of Madlik because we are going to be discussing a story in the Agadda, which is the material, I think I know it's been made into a play. But who knows, it could be even a movie coming to a theater near you, because it has so many turns to it. And so many different characters with character flaws and a storyline that is engaging. So, let us begin, we are reading from Deuteronomy 30. And the Torah says, speaking about the Torah, it says "It is not in the heavens that you should say, who amongst us can go up to the heavens and get it for us and impart it to us that we may observe it. Neither is it beyond the sea that you should save Who among us can cross to the other side of the sea and get it for us and impart it to us that we may observe it." So it seems to be a pretty straightforward sense of the Torah is here. You don't have to go far. What do you think Rabbi is the straightforward meaning of "Lo Bashamayim Hi",  that the Torah our teaching our tradition is not in heaven, and it's not on the other side of the sea,

Adam Mintz  02:36

Firs tof all Geoffrey, thank you so much. It's a great parsha to end the year with. I think what it means is that the best excuse you can give his Torah is too hard observance is  too hard tradition are too hard. Tradition is for the Super religious, for the people who can appreciate all of this. The answer is absolutely not. It's not in heaven. It's not far away. It's in our hearts and inside our mouths, it's up to us. It's right there. For us. It's the word I like to use in this portion is it's accessible. And we have to remember the Torah is accessible. If Torah is accessible, then we can we can reach it also.

Geoffrey Stern  03:21

 I agree with you totally. And I would read translate the phrase "Lo Bashamayim hi"  that it is not in heave as it's not in the sky. In other words, I think if you look at the two verses together, one says it's not up in the sky. And the other says it's not beyond the sea. It's very temporal. It's saying you don't have to go look anywhere else. You don't have to go on a trip, you don't have to go on an experience. You don't have to go find yourself a yogi. And I think in the Devarim Raba, it gives a bunch of explanations, but one says "it is not in heaven". They said to Moses, our teacher, but hey, you said to us it's not in heaven. It's not in the other side of the sea. But where is it? He said to them in the place that is close in your mouths in your hearts to do it. It is not far from you. It is close to you all."  And I think that's exactly what you were saying. It's almost to say, you know, people searched the whole world to find something only to find. They had it all along.  I think that even looking at it and thinking of heaven in terms of a sense of heaven and hell or heaven as the abode of God. The truth is if you look up this word in the five books of Moses, it typically means sky. So, so that we are going to launch a journey that began In the Talmud, where all of a sudden, this simple verse of saying, hey, it's not a pie in the sky, it's not up in the sky, it's right in your own hand, transformed and became something very dramatic. And I think it's a great example of what we were talking about in past weeks, how everything in the Torah, whether it's the activities that we're commanded to do, or the texts that we read, can take on a life of their own and be different things to different people as we move forward. So there is a famous story. And it is considered, I think, one of the most favorite stories and one of the most famous stories in the Aggadah, which is the the tradition of allegory and of myth and of  stories in the Talmud, as opposed to strict laws. And it's known by the name of the oven that is the the subject matter. Its in Baba Mitziah 59b And it starts by talking about rabbis discussing a particular oven that was formed in the shape of a snake, you got to kind of think of yourself as forming a playdough snake and then making it into an oven. So there are lines or spaces in between, and the rabbi's are discussing something very technical as to whether it is kosher, or if it's "tahor", if it was pure or impure, and we don't need to get into the details. But we do need to know  that one of the rabbi's whose name was Rabbi Eliezer he said to them that he believed that it was kosher. And the rest of the rabbi's said, No, we think it's impure. And so on that day, Rabbi Eliezer, who believed it was kosher gave all the possible answers in the world and the rabbi's did not accept his explanation. So this is one Rabbi named Rabbi Eliezer. He has a against a bunch of rabbis. And then he went on to say if the law is like me, he says, Let the carob tree prove it. And sure enough, a miracle happened and the carob tree was uprooted from its place 100 cubics. Some people save even 400 cubits. And the rabbi's answered him and said one does not say bring a proof from a carob tree. So Rabbi Eliezer said to them, if the Halacha is in accordance with me, let this stream prove it .... the aqueduct prove it. And all of a sudden, the water on the aqueduct started moving in the opposite direction. And they said to him, one does not cite a proof from a stream.  Rabbi Eliezer started to get blue in the face, and he says if the halacha is in accordance with my opinion, let the walls of the study hall prove it. And sure enough, the walls of the study hall leaned inward and began to fall. Rabbi Yehoshua scolded the walls and said to him, if Torah scholars are discussing Torah with each other. What does it mean to you? What is your involvement? So the walls did actually not fall out of deference to Rabbi Yehoshua, but they didn't straighten up in deference to Rabbi Eliezer until today, they still remain leaning. Finally, Rabbi Eliezer came to the end of this thread, and he says, if the halacha is like me, if the law is with me, let heaven prove it. And a divine voice a "bat Kol", came down from heaven and said, Why are you arguing with Rabbi Eliezer, the halaqa is always according to him. At this point, Rabbi Yehoshua stood on his feet and said, "Torah Lo Bashamayim hi", the Torah is not in heaven. What is the relevance of the phrase "it is not in heaven"? He said, since the Torah was already given at Mount Sinai, we do not regard a "Bat Kol"  a divine voice. And it says "Acharei Lerabim Lehatot", we go after the majority.... This is kind of like a Beatle song. There are many stops here. We could definitely stop here. But I'm going to go One more little insight before I stopped for our first discussion. The Gemora says Rabbi Nathan, one of the rabbis who had been arguing against Rabbi Eliezer happened to meet Elijah the Prophet on the street. And he said to him Elijah what was God doing when this discussion was happening? and Elijah the prophet said he smiled, and he said, "My children have defeated me. My children have defeated ME."Nitzchuni Bonai, Nitchuni Bonai". What a story and we're not even halfway through. Rabbi, Michael Posnik...., what do you think of this story?

Adam Mintz  10:18

So I, Geoffrey I'm also interested by the last line that you added, "my children have defeated me"? Is that good or bad? I mean, are we supposed defeat God? Or is that a criticism? What's the end piece? But I'm gonna turn it over to Michael, because Michael is gonna give us a dramatic insight into the story.

Michael Posnik  10:41

Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it's the only place in all of our literature where God smiles or laughs.

Geoffrey Stern  10:54

I hope that's not true. But

Adam Mintz  10:56

I don't think that's true. But you know what, but it's good anyway, even if it's not true it's a good insight.

Michael Posnik  11:03

if there's another one, then that would be nice to see that but so you asked if it was good or bad. Gods smiled or laughed. And I think he understood the picture and that he couldn't do anything about this. He gave the Torah and people have to address it according to their their needs. There's also a question here. I understand the oven as being really about the community and Rabbi Eliezer, because there seems to be a question about one of the stones or part of the oven was repaired. And because of the repair, the question was whether the odd stone or the odd stones that have been repaired, made that made the oven unclean, or unable to use it to kasher anything. And this to me, I read about as this community there are people in the community who are like the odd stones. Are are they to be counted in the minyan (quorum of 10 Jews), or not to be counted in the minyan and if they behave differently if they react differently? If they were kind of exiled. And the story unfortunately plays itself out. That Rabbi Akiva comes to Rabbi Eliezer who's now excommunicated, becomes into Herem, so he's out of the community, the community tosses him out.

Geoffrey Stern  12:42

Well, let's not jump ahead too much. We don't want to give away the surprise ending!

Michael Posnik  12:47

Well the surprise ending is a sad surprise. So those are just some thoughts that I think it is our responsibility to address the questions that come up in the Torah. I also wonder about the rabbi's need for power to hold the community together. And Rabbi Eliezer seems to be in the way to a kind of unified view in the community. These are massive questions that we're constantly dealing with, do we really go with the majority? Or is the minority view acceptable? This is today, this is in our world as well. So just some thoughts. nothing terribly dramatic, but just some thoughts.

Geoffrey Stern  13:31

Let me let me focus a little bit you mentioned about God smiling, let's let's take a second to look at some of the words that are used here. The word for smile is "Chiyuch". And inside of that, I believe is is Chai, which is life, and certainly humor. And this has a lot of irony in the story. It has a lot of tragedy, and God is all there in the drama and in the smile. The other word that I love here is "nitzchuni Bonai" , which is typically translated as having "defeated me, "netzach" can be to to be victorious, but as Rabbi Riskin pointed out, "Netchak", can also mean eternal "netzach Yisrael" and so Rabbi Riskin translates this as my children have defeated me, "my children have eternalized me." And before I open that up to discussion, remember when Rabbi Eliezer asked the walls of the Beit midrash" to prove him right? If you remember that was the only instance where the rabbi's jumped in and said to the walls of the Beit Midrash of the study hall. Don't listen to him Don't go all the way because we are engaged in the discussion of Torah the word that they used is "Amar Lehem Talmidei Chachamim nitzachim ze et zeh", that we are discussing, we are battling over Torah one with with the other. Again, the word netzach. Here. So I think, at the most basic part of the story, as we kind of pause, right here is yes, you have all of those elements that you described, Michael, you have the question of the individual, you have a question of the authority of the community, you have the question of, are we looking for truth? Or are we looking for compromise. But certainly, the reason a story like this lives forever, is because God is smiling, and we are doing what he wants us to do. And ultimately, that might be why the Torah is no longer in heaven. It's kind of like a father or mother who teaches their child something, and then has the Glee of watching their child take it somewhere that maybe they hadn't even thought of.

Adam Mintz  15:58

There's a lot there. You just said, I love the idea, Rabbi Riskin's famous idea that has been saying for many years, that my children have eternalized me, that arguing with the God is good, that shows that we're alive, that shows that we're thinking it's such an amazing idea, isn't it? "Nitzchuni Bonai..  they've defeated me, but they eternalize me by defeating ....it's the same word.

Geoffrey Stern  16:27

Absolutely. So we could stay here for the rest of the day. And I actually always thought that the story, as I just told it, was the key to the amazement and the beauty of this story, but it goes on. So now the rabbi's said, Okay, what do we need to do against Rabbi Eliezer, so the first thing that they they did is they put all the ritually pure items that Rabbi Eliezer said, were pure, and they burn them in a fire. And I know all of the images that that brings up amongst us. And then they said, Let's reach a consensus. And let's ostrocize him and lets put him in herem, the word that they use to put him in herem is kind of interesting. And it's one that a play that Michael was involved picked up on, instead of they say cursing, they say blessing, but it's understood that they just didn't want to utter the words of Herem of ostrasizng a Jew. So they they basically ostracize him. And then they have to figure out how we going to convey the message to him that he is ostracized. And so now we have another giant of the Torah raise his hand. And Rabbi Akiva says, I am his beloved disciple, I will go lets an insanely person go and inform him in a callous and offensive manner. And he would thereby destroy the entire world. They're going to excommunicate someone who can move carob trees and water in different directions. So what did Rabi Akiva do? He wrapped himself in black, he sat for cubics away from Rabbi Eliezer as you would sit from someone who is excommunicated, and the details are all there, I invite you all to go read them. And it goes dramatically. He rent his garments. He removed his shoes. Rabbi Eliezer said What happened? Who died, he started to cry, he shedded tears. And all of a sudden things in the world started to get afflicted and destroyed just because Rabbi Eliezer himself started to cry. And then the anger was great that day. And he finally realized that he was being excommunicated. You could not sugarcoat this message. And then the story goes on to Rabbi Gamaliel, who was the head of the Sanhedrin and was involved with this decision. And like the prophet Jonah, he's on a boat, and the water, the water is raging, and the boats about to sink. And he says to himself, he says to God, it seems to me that this is only for the sake of Rabbi Eliezer ben Hercanus This must be for what happened to him and he stood on his feet and he said Master of the Universe. It is revealed and known before you that neither was it for my honor that I acted in ostracizing him, nor was it for the honor of the house of my father, rather for your honor, so that disputes will not proliferate in Israel, and as a response to sea calmed from its raising, and Ima Shalom, we get a woman in the story. This is the wife of Rabbi Eliezer.  She knows that if Rabbi Eliezer ever put his head down on his arm and says the Tachanun Prayer where he cries out to God for that which has befallen him the world will be destroyed. And so she makes it her mission never to let him say the Tachnun prayer because, guess what her brother is Rabbi Gamliel. And sure enough she's  successful until one day, maybe it was because she thought it was Rosh Chodesh the new moon when you don't say Tachnun, maybe it was because a poor ani came to the door, but her attention was swayed, he said Tachnun. And the next thing we know a shofar blew announcing the death of Rabbi Gamliel. And the story ends and she says, Why did this happen? EMA shalom said, this is the tradition that I received from the house of my father, all the gates of heaven are locked, except for the gates of 'Ona'at Devarim' verbal mistreatment. And that is the end of this story. And as far as I can tell, the only pragmatist the only player in this story that is guiltless is possibly the walls of the Beit Midrash that compromised and didn't fall down. But every everybody else is so much to blame. What are your thoughts?

Michael Posnik  21:27

Geoffrey? It is truly a dramatic story. Because at the moment when God smiles or laughs, there's a lightness to the whole thing. And there's a sense of winning as it were, there's a sense of completion in the community. But that laughter turns to tremendous tragedy and grief and the death of the prince of the Sanhedrin and the murder, through Tachanun...  through prayer. It is a devastating tale. And I know the translation at the very end, which he says through the one who has been verbally abused. I know there are many other translations... I read one that said that all the gates are closed except the gates for the broken heart. And this story, I think, is a broken heart. It's not about an oven. I mean, it's about an oven, which is somewhat ironic and strange. But there's broken hearts all the way through this. And those rabbis who won the day as it were over God, they grieve. I think that oven was probably never used to get it's it's quite a powerful, dramatic story. I always think that the comic mask and the dramatic mask tied together with one string. It's not two separate masks. It's one and this story's really indicative of it. The last thing I want to say is Rabbi Akiva having to do that work. It's so close to the holiday now. It's so close to Rosh Hashanna, when we all must go and do work. That's difficult to do on ourselves and forgiveness, things like that with other people. So it's very moving moment. Rabbi Akiva going in black, and having to having to give this message. Geoffrey, you read very dramatically, I have to say I would cast you in a minute.

Geoffrey Stern  23:39

Was was this play ever performed? I know you sent me a script from a Daniel (Danny) Horowitz,. It's called a page of Talmud... was it ever performed?

Michael Posnik  23:48

It was performed when Donny wrote it in Tel Aviv sometime in the 80s. I produced it at the 92nd Street y with the Talking Band. And it was done. About a year ago, maybe a year and a half ago. Yoni Oppenheim produced it downtown in the theater with a company of people. They did that one and Donny Horowitz also wrote the story of Kamtza bar Kamtza", which is also not a happy story. Needless to say but very powerful. Yeah, it was produced, and maybe other places too. I don't know.

Geoffrey Stern  24:28

Amazing

Adam Mintz  24:31

it is amazing. Michael, I want to just go back to your idea of putting together the comic with the dramatic. Is it an interesting interlude. The God is smiling, even though it's such a tragedy. Aren't you struck by that?

Michael Posnik  24:49

That's why I went into the theater. Because ou never can resolve that. And the theater and all poetry and really good art does not let you resolve things like we try to do in real life? Like we tried to win the day with a halacha or whatever like the rabbi's. The world is resolvable. And so we are bound to live in, in the midst, in between those two amazing powers, we have to come out whole in some way. Well, that's our job.

Geoffrey Stern  25:23

But to me, it's the question of when does that occur in this story, it occurs right before they break back to the present and start burning Reb eliezer's stuff, and before they excommunicate him, where he smiles, it's rather an amazing place. Because if you recall, they said two arguments. One is that the Torah is not in heaven. And 2, that we go Acharei L'Rabim L'hatot. that we go after the majority. And that's amazing. Because if you look at Exodus 23, which is what they quote, Exodus 23 says, You shall neither side with the mighty to do wrong, "Lo acharei l'rabim" . And if you look at Rashi, on that, he says they are Halachik interpretations of the sages that go against the wording of the text. Athis is the part of the story that I think most people take away, and they don't get into the Sturm und Drang afterwards, that he was smiling, because his children had taken the text in a direction, either not meant, not intended, or even in a whole new directiion. And if it had ended there, maybe it would have been a nice story. But I think the challenge becomes when they therefore want to burn his vessels, or in his books, quiet him and stop him. And you know, the good of the, the whole, for that sake, that becomes a little dangerous. And Michael, you shared a text with me, which is absolutely unbelievable. It's from the Brothers Karamazov. And it's chapter five, the Grand Inquisitor, and there it talks about a regular day in Spain, where the Grand Inquisitor was killing some Jews burning them at the stake. And then all of a sudden, people look to the church and there's an infant that had died, and a holy person comes and brings that child back to life. And then Grand Inquisitor knows who it is. So he locks him up in jail. And literally, it's a similar parallel story to ours where the Grand Inquisitor says, I know you are Jesus the Lord. And you can't come back, you can come and change the rules because we don't need you. For 1500 years we clerics have been changing the rules because man cannot live with the freedom that you gave. So it's fascinating in terms of those who are supposed to be listening to the words of the Spirit can change it, and that can be good, but then they can silence it. And that is bad.

Michael Posnik  28:12

It's very interesting question also about the supernatural. All of the proofs that Rabbi Eliezer brings are supernatural and miraculous. And when the people asked Jesus to jump off the top of the synagogue, he refused, as he said, I don't want your faith to be in the supernatural. I want you to have faith because you have faith not because of something amazing... carob tree, or the water or the walls, or even a bat Kol. He wants people to believe so it's a very interesting conversation about how the super and how we live with quote the supernatural. And is there such a thing? And why do we keep longing for it? So the church, the Grand Inquisitor says, Yeah, we have them in the palm of our hand, you could have to but you didn't know you wanted them to be. You wanted them to be real mechen And not believe in something because of some kind of miraculous. Miracles aren't the whole thing. So in that sense, the rabbis saw one thing with the rabbis burning the stuff the burning the stuff is, is like the extra 500 people that were killed at the end of the Purim. Megillah.

Adam Mintz  29:30

Wow, Michael, there's a lot of stuff here that you're that you're pulling together. I think, Geoffrey, I appreciate that you brought Michael in because I think you're right. You really have to catch the dramatic moment. There's the religious moment. But there's the dramatic moment in this story. And it could it be that the dramatic moment is even more powerful than the religious moment.

Geoffrey Stern  29:52

So I totally agree. We only have a few more minutes, and I can't but ignore the parallels to The High Holidays that are coming upon us this sense of on'ah devarim you're right Michael It doesn't say onah devarim  it doesn't say, depriving somebody throughwords it just says on the app. And those of you sensitive to the language know that on Yom Kippur, the key is onitem et naphshechem.. that we should make ourselves kind of suffer. So there is a balance here that the worst thing that one can do is use the same words and if Rosh Hashannah and  Yom Kippur are about anything they're  words, they can save, but they can also they can also hurt. The real takeaway for me is, I always thought of this story from where we started and where we ended, and I never asked myself why was the story told? And maybe that's because in the Vilma Talmud, this literally forms on one page. But if you turn the folio and see how this all began, the rabbi's were discussing this sense of humiliating somebody, they said on the previous folio, it is preferable for a person to engage in sex with a woman who is possibly married, then humiliate somebody else in public "yalbim pnei haveru b'rabim. Then it goes on to say that Rav Hisda says all the gates of heaven are to be locked except for the gates of prayer for victims of verbal mistreatment. And then it goes on to say that apropos of this statement, we learned a story about a tanor (an oven) about Rabbi eliezer. So it isn't about where the Torah comes from. It's not about how we can change the Torah as much as we love that kind of stuff on Madlik. It's not about anything except what they did to Rabbi Eliezer.  About how after God smiled, they didn't know how to end the joke, and they had to become in the name of unity. They ostracized somebody, and as we head into the holidays, we have to know that yes, neilah is coming and the gates of prayer will be closed, but there's only one thing that can pierce those gates, and that is the cries of somebody who has been hurt and what that means is on the other side, that with words, we can provide solace and we can provide uplifting thoughts and support and maybe that will open up the gates too but this is an amazing pre Rosh Hashannah Pre yom kippur story, I believe.

Adam Mintz  32:46

Amazing. Geoffrey, thank you so much. Thank you, Michael, for your insights today. Shabbat Shalom, everybody we say Shana Tova, when we see you next year, we'll be in 5782. But the Torah continues, we're coming to the end everybody. Join us as Vayelech next week. A short portion, but short and sweet and it's a wonderful portion Geoffrey Shabbat Shalom and shana tovah to everybody.

Geoffrey Stern  33:10

Shanah Tova to you all.